Rift Between El-Rufai And Shehu Sani, Advantage To My Party – Barde

HON YAKUBU UMAR BARDE IS THE MINORITY WHIP AT THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. IN AN INTERACTIVE SESSION WITH JOURNALISTS, JULIET OYOYO WAS THERE, BARDE A BLUNT AND OUTSPOKEN PERSON BARED IT ALL.
Excerpts…….
There are many issues going on in Nigeria that I know many people are not sure of; and as one of the principal officers (Minority Whip) in the National Assembly, I stand a very good chance. I’m well informed of the happenings and I’ll answer your questions without doubts, fear or favour.  I’ll say it the way it is.  One of the newspapers here say; “conscience is measured by truth”.  When you say the truth you have no fear.  So, I am going to answer your questions rightly and at the end of the day we will  be better informed about our country.

Honourable please kindly shed more light on the missing 2016 budget?

This issue of missing of Budget is something that is very disturbing to the conscience of members of the National Assembly and I believe this also include Nigerians.  The budget is a very sacred document because it shows the way forward and what the government wants to do.  Normally as a ranking member in the National Assembly for the fourth time, I know when Mr. President presents a budget, it’s kept in the custody of the Clerk of the National Assembly or the various Chambers, either Clerk of the Senate or that of the Federal House of Representatives. It is there that the budget is printed and copies are produced for members before deliberations are made on the budget.

Before now, as far as I personally am concerned and most of us have not received whatever will be tagged either original or doctored budget.  We’re aware that the budget was presented and we’re waiting for the photocopies to be given to members.  So, if you’re not privy to what the original say and now somebody says it has been doctored.  You’ll now find it difficult to say yes or no because you don’t know what the original entails.  This is something that has over 700 pages and if it has been doctored it means that you’ve gone through it page by page and you realized that a new one that has been brought in has been changed.  So, I as a member of the House of Reps have not been privy to the original copy.  So if it has been changed now, I can’t really say.  The truth is that, I know the budget was presented and in the Senate as it is being said by my senior colleagues in the Senate. You would agree with me that once it has been presented to the Senate President and to Mr. Speaker, they have the first hand information of what the budget entails before members of National Assembly.

Now it has not gotten to us, and I don’t know if the Senate President saw it and at end of the day they realized that something has been changed. And that as it may if really things were changed in the budget without formally going through the normal process, maybe amendment or withdrawal and presenting another one.  Then it is very unfortunate, it means that some people are trying to joke or play with the conscience of Nigerians, because there’s no way in this sensitive time and period where Nigerians are eager to see that government give them direction, that you’ll now say the instrument of appropriation, or that will decide which projects the government wants to do is missing.   It is very unfortunate and I think Mr. President should really look at it and investigate it so that we know where the problem comes from.
Do you think the National Assembly Should go ahead and debate the Budget?
whether the National Assembly should go ahead and debate the budget that has been prevented. Firstly, I think it’s important to ask Mr. President if what we’re debating on is what he brought to the National Assembly. If it is what he brought to the National Assembly, then it means we have the original document presented by the President. And the next thing to do is to go ahead and debate it.  So, for me its for Mr. President who has already written to the National Assembly, but I’ve not yet read the letter.   We’re waiting at least by tomorrow to read the letter and know what he said.  And if he tells us that the budget is what he presented; then I think there’s no reason we just go ahead and do our work as it is today.  I learnt he has written to the National Assembly and I think it will be read on the floor of the House tomorrow in the Senate.

The second issue of anti-corruption, you see, I always say this thing; this is personal Mr. President alone cannot fight corruption; but the judiciary, legislature and the executive need to put hands to together.  In a situation where people have offended the laws of the country and they’re bailable I think the court should say so.  The judiciary who is the interpreter of the law if they feel that’s what the law says, I think the executive and the legislature should not interfere because that’s their job.  So, in this fight against corruption I strongly feel Mr. President has good intentions but again, I think there are people who are overzealous on what should be done, and I think it is not good.  So, Mr. President has the right to call which ever agency that is in charge of the fight against corruption to make sure that they do the right thing because when you are overzealous or vindictive, thinking so, so person belongs to this party and that , I think that’s where its wrong.  But I’m very sure because I know President Buhari very well, I know his integrity and he means well.  But you cannot exclude the fact that there are people who are overzealous who think they are today in government and there is the need to take their pound of flesh on certain people, I think that’s where it is wrong. That’s where we are getting it wrong and the courts must be obeyed, this is democracy.  If our laws are not thick enough then there’s need for Mr. President, or Nigerians or the legislature to make sure that our laws are such that people don’t commit crimes and escape.

What about sabotage on the budget issue, occasioned by the war between senators and the Senate president?
You see it’s good to insinuate and also good to state facts. As far as I’m concern I’m privy to have met Mr. President with the principal members of the officers of the National Assembly and the way I see Mr. President and the Senate President exchange pleasantries, for me I want to believe they’ve settled down and want to do the work they’re sent there to do.

Now, the issue is this if Mr. President later changed the budget as it is insinuated that it has been changed by the Special Assistant to the President on National Assembly, Senator Ita Enang.  Senator Ita Enang is a very experienced legislator who has been in the National Assembly for 16years.  And I know he knows the process of presenting the budget and if there’s need to withdraw it and send another one, he knows the ways.  So, the issue here is did Mr. President intend to change the budget and represent it; and if he means that, then Senator Ita Enang is doing the service to Mr. President. But if Mr. President has not changed the budget some people sat down somewhere and changed it..now I always tell people this thing if you’re in a leadership position.. thank God I’m in opposition.  The Senate President and Mr. Speaker are members of the ruling party.  The image they’re creating for Nigerians, the opposition is taking it, that they’re not ready to rule.  Because if the presentation of a budget will bring this rancor, it’s disgraceful and despicable for a country that has been practicing democracy for over 16 years. So, it is very sad.  For me I think the important thing is things must be done right; and who is not getting it right.  We’re waiting for Mr. President who has written to the National Assembly like I earlier said and it will be brought to the floor of the House tomorrow.  We would want to know he’s own side of the story; did he change the budget and wanted another one brought? Yes.  What was the process to be followed? What did the Special Adviser to the President on  National Assembly did?  Because he knew the right thing of what should have been done.
Yes! Like I’ll continue to say, it’s unfortunate that APC cannot put it acts together and I’ll continue to say so because if you look at the leadership of the Senate and the House of Representatives they’re all APC members.  For me as an opposition I think APC is not ready to rule Nigeria, they should have done better.  The presentation of the budget is a very simple thing.  All they need to do is for Mr. President to go to the National Assembly, address them, present your budget and go. So, why should it be missing? If the House of Representatives were ruled by opposition now and the President is in a different party, then that’s where you’ll now say there’s mischief somewhere; but as it is today why can’t APC put their house together and make sure that issue of missing budget doesn’t even arise.  It watered down the confidence most Nigerians have on the administration.  That’s very true it waters down Nigerians’ confidence on the administration because if you cannot present the budget in a better way then you can imagine what you will do in terms of implementation?

Still on the budget, when will it become a law?.

Mr. Speaker ask members to receive copies of the budget last week (Thursday), most of us maybe during the weekend were able to get it and I believe by tomorrow or today most members of the National Assembly would have gotten copies of the budget.  I think members are resolute about seeing that the budget is passed early.  I want to predict that we assure that we’ll do justice to it before March. Before March we should be able to pass the budget because before now Mr. President had met with principal officers in determining the bench mark of crude oil.  We believe that the crude oil bench mark as it were, was realistic because we’re talking of nearly a month, maybe three weeks now.   And if you look at the sharp fall in the crude oil prices from that time he presented the budget to now, you’ll agree with me that the 38 Dollar bench mark is no longer realistic.  The crude oil price in the global market has fallen below 28 Dollars per barrel.  So, it means that the revenue government is expecting will not be able to meet up with projects captured in the budget.  And if that be the case, it means that members of the National Assembly have to be realistic in looking at this bench mark.  And I think Mr. President will be kind enough to know that we’re trying to be realistic in telling Nigerians these are the projects we intend to do because if you cannot generate enough revenues or income to the government it means that most of the projects captured in the budget would not be implemented. We don’t want a situation whereby projects are just captured in paper and in practical terms they’re not there.  This is part of the problem we usually have and in previous administrations, like I said I’m experienced and I know it was our government.  Most of the problems we had at that time were that projects that were captured were not implemented.  And you’ll see some people will sit down and make sure that these things are not done in their areas, it doesn’t favour them, or they have one reason or the other.  But today I think we should give it to Mr. Buhari because nobody would even try to do that.  Most of the ministers know that if there’s a project in your ministry you’re not able to do it…. I’m even aware that Mr. President said there’ll be quarterly briefing of implementations by various ministers, that’s a very good innovation.  For me as a Nigerian, that will put the ministers on their toes to make sure that project in their ministries are implemented.  They said the fear of Buhari is the beginning of wisdom.  You’ll agree with that. Just his body language is even enough for some people to sit up and that’s a leader.   I’m in the opposition but I believe that if he continues with the process of making sure he’s in charge and people sit up and do the right thing then I don’t think we’ll have any problem in implementation of the budget.

The budget is precedented on apart from the crude oil which is not realistic now, then the internally generated revenue.  If you look at wastages in previous government in terms of leakages and revenue generation. I read but not certain that the Nigeria Customs boss in this three or six months, he has been there has generated N902 billion.  If that is true, I think we should be able to call a spade a spade and say he’s done well despite the fact that he’s not in my party, but he’s done well.  Previously, in six months the former Comptroller-General of Customs gave us only N2 billion as money generated.  So, if the Comptroller-General of Customs can generate N902 billion in four months, I think we’re heading to a good start.  I have confidence in terms of the internally generated revenue that they could meet up the short fall.  If they could do that it means the budget also will be implemented.
What do you think should be  Penalties for corruption in the country?
Let me speak personally, I’m a believer of the fact that people should be punished for offences committed. I also believe that punishment should be segregated in such a way that it should be commensurable to what you’ve done.  We’re living in a very funny country where people steal N1,000 and are put in jail for years, while some people steal billions and use that same billions to escape justice.  That’s not good enough.  If you ask me personally, we’ve started discussion; I’ll let the cat out of the bag.  I and some members in the National Assembly are of the belief that Nigeria should have special court for corruption cases.  Special dedicated courts because if you look at the quantum of corruption in the country today… we’re just talking of …. It is called the secret deeds, the arm deal and look at the quantum of money and the number of people that are involved.  You’ve not gone to the ministries and states yet and its only ICPC and EFCC that are to do all these jobs. If we’re honest to ourselves the work is overwhelming.  And you know people will like to use the legal system to delay justice and that’s what is happening today.  So, why don’t we have dedicated courts to try all these corruption cases so that justice could be dispensed off quickly?  I’m aware that some former governors have been in EFCC’s and have not been to courts for the past 8 years  It does not encourage the young people it rather encourage them to steal because if you can delay justice for 10 years; I mean that’s a good one because some people would have died.  I know of some people that died even when their cases were still on trials.  So, I think we really have to put our heads together. Corruption, hunger or poverty does not know party, tribe or religion.  We must as Nigerians take a very bold stand. If you ask me, I’ll tell you that if someone steal from one million to a hundred millions they should cut his hand, yes.  There’s nothing wrong so that when we see you on the street we know that you stole, that’s why your hand is cut.  And those that steal in billions should be hanged. Confiscate their property and hang them.  Because we know how Nigerians are suffering today.  People are living in abject poverty, no good healthcare.  You can image this issue of arm deal.  If you knew these money were meant for procurement of arms.
Nigerians feel that they have not seen anything different from the way the lawmakers handles or debates on issues affecting the citizenry?

If Nigerians say they have not seen anything different, I would say if we’ve been there for six months when this administration came into power, you would agree with me that even when Mr. President brought the medium term expenditure framework we debated it and we had disagreement in many areas. Normally, the National Assembly has more members of the ruling party in the Chamber and the executive.  You’re not supposed to rubber stamp everything and that has not been the case here.  I assure you that I and members of the National Assembly are determined….Let me specifically say, the House of Representatives was the one that muted the idea of having a special commission for the North-East area and it was accepted by Mr. President that we should have a special commission to take care of rebuilding and resettlement of the North-East region of Nigeria.  I think Nigerians should give the House of Representatives kudos for that.  We know today that not only the people of North-East but most parts of this country are in very hopeless situation.  Many people left their homes and are living in camps for six months in cold, no affordable drinking water, no good facilities and we strongly felt that members of the National Assembly should have a committee to oversee this commission to make sure that people are settled back to their homes.

Now apart from trying to settle people back to their homes, you would agree with me that the issue of insurgency in Nigeria is something that has touched everyone’s lives no matter the part of Nigeria you are; you must have been affected one way or the other. We are in full support of Mr. President in the fight against insurgency.  He brought a letter to the House for the National Assembly to approve I think N5 billion for enforcement of the fight against insurgency and the House approved it.  The House didn’t need to tell Nigerians it’s not going to approve it because everybody knows and its very obvious that Nigeria needs money to fight insurgency.  You’ll see our actions if we disagreed but sometimes most of the issues brought which we strongly feel are of benefits to Nigerians we don’t need to make noise about it.

Former President Obasanjo at a time called the lawmaker of the National Assembly thieves, how do you defend that?

I personally had interacted one-on-one with the former President, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo. He said we’re all thieves (general laughter), and I said okay Mr. President the National Assembly does not prepare the budget but the executive does that and bring to us.  And when the executive bring the budget to us, NASS does not execute but the executive, now is it the person that executes that is corrupt or he that just passed it? This question he couldn’t answer.  The issue of corruption should not be looked at from the National Assembly alone.  If you have a gathering of 360 plus 109,   you’ll agree with me that we can’t all be a saint, that’s very obvious we can’t all be saints.  I can tell you there are good people in the National Assembly that are ready to work for this country.  In my sojourn in the National Assembly for 14 years now I’ve met very credible Nigerians but again I’ve met people that it is …….….. now in that situation what we try to do is to make sure that those of us that have the love of the country at heart tries to woo the others because the National Assembly is about negotiations.  He that has the number will take the day.  The minority can always have their say but majority have their ways.  So, if people say members of the National Assembly are corrupt, I’ll ask you where do we see the means of being corrupt?  I’m in the National Assembly like I earlier said for close to 14 years I’ve never done any contract.  Anybody can go and check, no any contracts.  We know that most corruptions come from contracts that are inflated, over bloated.  So, if I don’t do contracts I earn my salaries and allowances and you tell me I’m corrupt, hey maybe if I go to oversight functions right? now it means that the giver and taker are culpable.  Because if you’re a minister why should you give the National Assembly members bribe if you’ve done your work to the latter? Why?  All you need to do is to tell them okay this project was N20,000 look at we’ve implemented it the same amount, then you can beat your chest and walk away.  But you only give bribe when you sense that you’ve cut corners.  Maybe you didn’t do the project to the specification so you want members of the National Assembly to keep quiet.  So, members of the National Assembly can never be corrupt without the connivance of the executives, that’s just the truth,

What have you done for your people that had made them re-elect you for the fourth term?

I think Nigerians like sincerity. In anywhere you find yourself and someone ask for something from you, if you know you can do it just answer but if you can’t be honest enough not to tell him come today, come tomorrow because at the end the person will not be happy.  So, I tell you the secret of my success is sincerity and do the needful.  What is the needful?  Today if I have N20 I can assure you I’m ready to share N10 with members of my constituency.  I have done lots of projects; and remember during the administration of Chief Olusegun Obasanjo members were given constituency projects worth N10 of N15million annually.  What were allocated is just a monetary figure its now left for you to know the most important needs of your constituency.  Then you look at the amount allocated to you and if for example the amount allocated for in a year is say N30 million there’s no way for you to build a school worth say N40 million because it means the budget cannot carry it.  So, it is your decision to say okay I want boreholes to be dug in my constituency, then it means the project will go to the Federal Ministry of Water Resources this is how its’ done.  During the Obasanjo administration we had problems because he strongly felt that we should not touch the budget, that we should pass it the way it came.  So, most of the projects that were there at the end members’ projects were not implemented and there’s nothing you can do about it because if you go and meet the minister he will tell you I’m building a dam of so billions somewhere if it is about water or if it’s ministry of education which is so bogus.  If you have a project of just N10 million in ministry of education, they’ll look at it as very insignificant and would not even have time for it because they have projects ranging from three digits of millions to billions.  So, members of the National Assembly have this problem yearly and I took it upon myself that this must be explained to people because at the end the people will tell you they’ve not felt your impacts.  And what the people want are projects.  So, today I’m advocating that whichever way you want to look at it, there’s need to make provisions for National Assembly members for projects in their constituencies because Nigerians want to see physical.  If you’re the best lawmaker there, you stand up every day and pass motions and bills, you’ll still come back to your constituency they’ll tell you they don’t know and that you’ve done nothing and have not felt your impact.  But if you can see primary schools being renovated, or boreholes are dug where they have water problem.  They’ll say oh he works.  This is what I’ve seen in my years as a member in the National Assembly.  People don’t care whether you move motions or not.  There are members in the National Assembly today that have never moved motions and have been returned for 3 terms.  I’ll continue to say, I think the government…. the level of our developments needs to make sure that there are provisions in the budget for members of the National Assembly so that each constituency will feel the impact of government.  I tell you there are some constituencies today that the Federal Government has no roads or presence there.  Now, if you’re a member representing such people what are you going to tell them? And you tell them you’re working in the National Assembly and there are projects in some constituencies but not done in yours?   We’re trying to put projects in the budget.  And the truth there is that we could put it there but we’re not the ones to implement it. Some ministers could be kind enough to ask you if you have a good contractor who can do the job, but that does not mean it’s automatic, that the contractor could get it.  Some of us shy away from even producing any contractor because we don’t want more problems.  At the end if you as a member of the National Assembly suggests or gives the ministry a contractor to do the job, the contractor definitely may be your friend and so at the end if your friend is not able to implement it you can’t even look into his eyes and say I’m disappointed.  You cannot discipline him.  So, I’ll tell the minister just do the normal thing, do the bidding whoever qualifies let him go and do it so that I could look into his eyes and say this work is not up to the standard.

 

 

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